By Tony Collins
On BBC Radio 4’s flagship news programme, Today, the co-presenter Justin Webb made a comment that seemed to sum up the protracted fight by 550 sub-postmasters to achieve justice after they were wrongly blamed for financial shortfalls shown on the institution’s Horizon IT system.
He made the comment when interviewing former sub-postmistress Jo Hamilton for the programme yesterday. Hamilton’s life has been blighted for 13 years by a wrongful criminal conviction for false accounting in 2008. Hamilton’s appeal against her conviction is being heard in the Court of Appeal this week, alongside 41 other cases.
Webb told the Today programme’s 7.1 million listeners yesterday morning,
“What does it tell you about the way this country is run because it seems such a fundamental wrong that was done to so many of you and yet it had taken such a lot of effort – well your effort – to put it right.”
Jo Hamilton’s Today interview
Ministers have told Parliament that the Post Office is reforming to prevent any repeat of the Post Office IT scandal but Hamilton told the Today programme that the institution is still fighting sub-postmasters.
“Going forward, their attitude still hasn’t changed. They are still fighting people. It is just not right,” she told Webb.
Last year, junior business minister Paul Scully, who is the government’s spokesman on the Post Office and is Conservative MP for Sutton and Cheam in Surrey, told MPs,
“If we are going to get the future relationship with postmasters right, we have to tackle the injustices that have happened in the past, but we also have to rebuild, with the new management in the Post Office, trust and training and respect for the sub-postmasters of the future.”
In a similar vein, Webb yesterday read from a statement the BBC had received from the Post Office. Webb said,
“… they [the Post Office] sincerely apologise for historical failings and have taken determined action to address the past to ensure redress for those affected and prevent such events happening again.” Webb then asked Hamilton,
“Have they in your view done enough?”
Hamilton’s reply referred to High Court litigation which last year determined that the Post Office’s Horizon system contained material bugs and errors that caused shortfalls in branch accounts for which local sub-postmasters were wrongly blamed. Hamilton had to make good £37,000 deficits shown on the Horizon system. She ended up at Winchester Crown Court where more than 70 local villagers turned up to support her, including the local vicar who spoke to the judge in support of her. She pleaded guilty to false accounting after the Post Office offered her a plea bargain: plead guilty to false accounting or be charged with theft which could lead to imprisonment. Her criminal conviction has made it difficult to get a get job or even car insurance.
The Post Office is not opposing most of the cases in the Royal Courts of Justice this week where former sub-postmasters are appealing their convictions. It means that dozens of convictions, including Hamilton’s, are likely to be quashed. But the Post Office, in most cases, denies that it was wrong to have prosecuted in the first place which suggests it is not fully exonerating sub-postmasters of wrongdoing.
Hamilton told the Today programme that the Post Office ought to have addressed injustices years ago.
“… it now clear from what came out in court that they knew exactly what was happening and they fought us every way in the High Court.”
She also referred to the government’s recent decision to bail out the Post Office by funding claims that are granted under the Post Office’s Historical Shortfall Scheme. Nearly 2,500 former sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have applied to the scheme for compensation. Ministers, including Scully, have, up until now, told Parliament repeatedly that the government is not involved in the Post Office’s operations.
Hamilton told the Today programme,
“… it remains clear that they knew; and the government has a ministerial [representative] on the [Post Office] board and now they are bailing out the Historical Shortfall Scheme, they keep denying they are linked and that it is an arm’s length business but they are clearly joined at the hip. So everyone will have known.”
But the government’s bail out of the Historical Shortfall Scheme does not include any government compensation for 550 former sub-postmasters who took part in the High Court litigation. The 550 are excluded from the Historical Shortfall Scheme. Scully has said in the past that the Post Office paid £57.75m in full and final settlement of the litigation. He has refused to pay any further money. But much of the settlement went in legal costs. Hamilton told Today,
“If you have got enough money and power you can squash people. It has cost virtually all of the compensation we got … they say they paid £58m … but the claimants, the litigants, only got £11m of that. Between us, that doesn’t even recover what we’ve given them.”
Hamilton said that the Post Office’s used its “bottomless purse” to the point where sub-postmasters in the litigation could not afford to continue the case and had to settle. She said,
“The Post Office had a bottomless purse, basically, to fight us, so they knew at some point it would tip the scales and we couldn’t fight them any further.”
It means Hamilton is likely to have her conviction quashed but will not be paid any government compensation. Webb asked Hamilton,
Have you any idea when you are going to get compensation?
“No,” said replied. “That is another battle to come. They have appointed lawyers to limit the damage. But yes, it is another struggle.”
Webb referred listeners who want to know more about the scandal to Nick Wallis’ 10-part series “The Great Post Office Trial” which is on BBC Sounds.
The full transcript of Justin Webb’s interview of Jo Hamilton is below:
Webb: “What can you do when your employer, hugely powerful, a household name, accuses you of fiddling the books. Th answer in the case of hundreds of postmasters and postmistresses is not very much. Over 15 years, they were prosecuted by the Post Office. They were blamed for unexpected accounting shortfalls which were actually caused by errors in the new computer system that they used in the branches. As well as being prosecuted they were forced to pay the money back, often with catastrophic impacts on their lives. Jo Hamilton was sub-postmistress at a village shop in Hampshire. She is one of those hoping to get her conviction for false accounting overturned at the Court of Appeal in a hearing that starts today. I asked her what the best outcome of it all would be:
Jo Hamilton: “Eventually I hope to get my conviction quashed and then some kind of compensation. I don’t know if it is a done deal today. We have everything there for them to quash the conviction but yes – what a journey! It has been a long, long time.
Webb: How long, for you?
“Well my Post Office started going wrong in 2003 and I was 45 and I am now 63. That gives you some idea of how long this battle has been.”
What has the impact been on you?
“Financially – every time there was a deficit I had to make it good and then ultimately I ended up in Winchester Crown Court, pleaded guilty to false accounting because I had no choice and had to repay £37,000.”
When you say you had no choice, why was that?
“Well because originally they only charged me with theft and I pleaded not guilty to theft because I had not stolen anything but then at the very last minute they offered a plea bargain. They said if you plead guilty to false accounting (a lesser charge than theft) and repay the money we will drop the theft. I pleaded guilty to false accounting and repaid the money.”
You had extraordinary support didn’t you from your neighbours and customers?
“Customers yes, and the vicar. It was a proper Vicar from Dibley moment. The vicar stood up in court and spoke on my behalf and said I was the heart of the community and, if he was going to jail me, please don’t jail me for a long time because they needed me. There were 74 people in court. At the time I was terrified because I thought I was going to prison but now I can look back and laugh. It was quite bizarre. What the judge thought, I don’t know. He kept shaking his head and looking at me and said, ‘Why are you in my court?'”
Webb: Well, on that subject the Post Office has now issued a statement. They are not opposing most of these appeals – the appeal that you are involved with. They have informed the court, the appellants, of this. They said they did it at the earliest opportunity. They also say they sincerely apologise for historical failings and have taken determined action to address the past to ensure redress for those affected and prevent such events happening again. Have they in your view done enough?
Hamilton: “Well, they should have done it years ago because it now clear from what came out in court that they knew exactly what was happening and they fought us every way in the High Court. Going forward, their attitude still hasn’t changed. They are still fighting people. It is just not right.”
You say they knew that they had made, well to put it mildly, a mistake.
“Yes. They did. Documents came out in court, they came out in the High Court trial. Lots of it is redacted but it remains clear that they knew; and the government has a ministerial [representative] on the [Post Office] board and now they are bailing out the Historical Shortfall Scheme, they keep denying they are linked and that it is an arm’s length business but they are clearly joined at the hip. So everyone will have known.”
Have you any idea when you are going to get compensation?
“No. That is another battle to come. They have appointed lawyers to limit the damage. But yes, it is another struggle.”
Webb: What does it tell you about the way this country is run because it seems such a fundamental wrong that was done to so many of you and yet it had taken such a lot of effort – well your effort – to put it right.
Hamilton: “If you have got enough money and power you can squash people. It has cost virtually all of the compensation we got … they say they paid £58m … but the claimants, the litigants, only got £11m of that. Between us, that doesn’t even recover what we’ve given them. The Post Office had a bottomless purse, basically, to fight us, so they knew at some point it would tip the scales and we couldn’t fight them any further.”
Thank you very much for talking to us this morning.
Webb: I should say if you want to know more about the background to all of that, there was a Radio 4 series, it was called The Great Post Office Trial, and it is still available on BBC Sounds. Do go to it if you want to know more.”
Mishal Husain [Today co-presenter): “Very good series it is too.”
Post Office staff instructed to shred documents that undermined its claims Horizon was robust – Karl Flinders, Computer Weekly
Government to bail out Post Office which can’t afford to pay compensation to sub-postmasters – Karl Flinders, Computer Weekly
Thank you, Tony, for this update.
“What does it tell you about how a country is run….”
I suggest it’s very difficult to run anything when you’ve lost your moral compass.
The needle of the Post Office and government’s moral compass seems to have been stuck on one position – dishonourable.
What a shameful country.
Blessings to the victims. Thank you again, Tony.
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Thank you Zara